Ep 14: Headfakes & Heartbreaks (The Banishing of Hagar and Ishmael, Genesis 21)

“A few chapters back, Sarah tells Abraham to get rid of Hagar, and Abraham says “she’s your slave. She’s your issue.  Do whatever you want.”  In other words, you’ve already trafficked this Egyptian to me, I’ve already raped her, I don’t give a shit.”  But now, oh, but now.  But now there is a son involved, and so now, this jackass seems to care…”

Hagar’s story is far from over as the cycle of trauma in Abraham’s family continues. A few episodes later, we’ll see how Sarah’s actions in this chapter haunt Isaac into adulthood and into his own marriage.


Ep. 12: The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Was Never About Homosexuality (Genesis 19)

In this extended episode, we follow the Genesis narrative(s) into Chapter 19, and we take some journeys to later Christian scripture.  We look at the reasons why this text and later texts are not about homosexuality why if you take the Bible on its own terms, they simply can’t be.  Trigger warnings: sexual assault, rape.

Strange New Worlds (and Patreon)


Worst Church Ever here.  We started our podcast on May 5, 2021, and we’re about to hit our 500th download.  That’s not earth-shaking news, but it’s also not bad for a new pod with no budget that comes out and tells you how much it sucks right from the start.

Why Worst Church Ever?  The name is part joke, part humblebrag, part theological aspiration. It’s a reminder (to ourselves) that we don’t know everything, that we don’t claim to represent the entirety of the progressive Christian tradition, and it’s a little bit of flaming coal for those pastors (conservative and progressive alike) that think it’s their job to be the hippest, coolest, biggest, best. That’s not our journey, but we hope they’re warm and well-fed on theirs.

We’re as sick as you are of words like “deconstructing,” but we have a hunch that deconstruction hasn’t gone nearly as far as it needs to in Christian circles.  No, we can’t just slap together a flaming pile of garbage and call it deconstruction (this isn’t a cooking competition), but we can continue to look our scriptures, traditions, and theologies with fresh eyes.  This podcast has a near-obsessive need to do just that.  In the process, we’re rejecting theologies of exclusion, believing that the Good News is going to be good, and not just for people who “get it” (whatever that means).   

Our costs are fairly low (most of the platforms we use are free), but we’re launching a Patreon account to help defray the occasional (modest) social ad buy and to connect to people who are interested in taking an honest, thoughtful look at these issues together.

That’s our story. What’s yours?  Let’s connect!

Quantum Gospel, Cosmic Christ

Hushed and tired tones from 1AM. Holy Ghost Coast to Coast. Quantum physics, Upanishads, Schrodinger, Eden, and Jesus…

We skipped the bumper music and reached directly for the warm milk and melatonin. The snoring dogs scared away Schrodinger’s cat.


Many quantum theories predict that objects move from the quantum to the macro realm only when (and only because) they are observed. This bonus episode considers the incarnation of Christ as God’s quantum choice to observe us from within the flesh and blood of Jesus. In choosing to enact this course of action from the infinite scenarios in the probability cloud of God’s consciousnesses, God elects a reality in which God is bound to us. We also consider the quantum origins of evil and more.

Ep. 10: Circumcision, Power, and Violence in Genesis 17

Who gets to put (which) skin in the game, and why does it matter?

Partial transcript:

Hello and Welcome to Worst Church Ever, the progressive Christian podcast that grew up down the block from Wayside School.  We like our stories sideways and our Biblical theology…subversive. 

In the last episode, we talked about Sarah’s treatment of Hagar in Chapter 16 as Sarah’s way of reproducing her own trauma.  Trafficked by her husband in the court of Pharaoh, Sarah now traffics her Egyptian slave in Abraham’s tent. We said that it’s hard to see the patriarch and matriarch as anything but villains in this story, and we ended with Hagar’s exaltation of El Roi, the God who she saw in the wilderness, and, perhaps more importantly, the God who saw her.

We pick up today with Chapter 17, which again finds God (Yahweh) making a covenant with Abram/Abraham:  

“ When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.”
9 God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. 13 Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Listen to episode 10 for the rest of the story!

Who Do We Think We Are, Anyway?

Progressive Christian podcast about social justice, Biblical Studies (that’s Biblical Studies, friends, not church camp Bible Studies!) and more. The world’s worst Christian podcast. Deconstructing the stranglehold that fundamentalist and conservative evangelical voices seem to have on American religious discourse. Progressive Christians digging around in what the Bible actually says, because the Good News is supposed to be good…

Available Spotify, Apple, Google, and more. If you like what we’re doing, please do subscribe and review on your platform of choice. Thank you!

Lot’s Daughters Keep the Score (Genesis 19)

As we move through Genesis 19, familiar patterns are starting to emerge.  We see the patriarchs, matriarchs, and their families recreating trauma in destructive cycles. As noted in the last episode, this tracks with what modern neuroscience knows about the ways in which “the body keeps the score.”   Trigger warnings:  incest, rape. 

You can play the full episode below, or visit our Anchor.fm page for links to it on other platforms. Thanks for stopping by.



Hello and Welcome to Worst Church Ever, the world’s worst Christian podcast. We believe in pesky, liberal things like comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable.  Saying we believe in doing those things is easier, of course, than actually doing them, but the fact that we’re the worst doesn’t recuse us from having to try.  But here’s the thing.  It turns out that affliction is all over the place.  It turns out that we, many of us, anyway, cling to whatever comfort we can scrape together.  It turns out that our brains find some sort of comfort in revisiting, recreating, and reproducing our afflictions.  In the last episode, I mentioned the book “The Body Keeps the Score,” and I highly recommend it.  It turns out that the body of writings we call scripture also keeps the score, the patriarchs and matriarchs, they all kept the score, and so far, through 19 chapters of Genesis, they simply cannot stop reproducing their trauma.

Abraham traffics Sarah to the Egyptian Pharaoh.  Sarah trafficks her Egyptian slave to Abraham.  Abraham’s nephew, Lot, tries to traffic his daughters to the men of Sodom.  In today’s reading, taken from the end of Genesis 19, it’s clear that Lot’s daughters have also kept the score.

But first, a look at Lot’s own trauma.  As we talked about in Episode 12, Lot was a resident alien in Sodom, and when two new strangers find protection under Lot’s roof, a xenophobic mob attempt a gang rape.  Seeking to protect the visitors (angels of one kind or another…hypervalued “men” in any case), Lot offers his daughters to the mob instead.  The mob refuses Lot’s daughters, and then promises Lot that because he, a foreigner, has dared to judge their actions, they will subject him to even greater humiliation and abuse than they’re intending for his visitors.   

These angels blind the mob and eventually lead Lot, his wife, and the daughters out of Sodom.  The explicitly command Lot to flee to the mountains, but Lot says 

““No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.””

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.)

When Lot and his family give the all clear, Yahweh commits genocide. That might not be how we’re used to thinking about the story, but that’s what’s happening.  This is Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  This is the fire-bombing of Tokyo or Dresden.  And why does it happen?  Because Yahweh’s feely wellies are all bent of of shape.  The people of the cities of the plain are wicket, so they deserve to die.  Every. single. one of them.  You’d think a deity powerful enough to nuke a city (I don’t see Baal or Anubis doing that) would have the ability to be, what, a bit more surgical in his (always his) attacks.  I guess if you believe that this story really describes the nature and actions of God, it’s easy not to care about the collateral damage of drone strikes or the fate of migrant children.  It’s easy to go all in, soon, on the conquest of Canan, on Aneas’s conquest of Italy, or on something like manifest destiny.   Anyway, God levels the city and kills everyone in it.  The angels warn Lot’s family not to look back, you can never look back, but Lot’s wife wants one more glimpse of the dead-head sticker on her Cadillac.  Or maybe, like the rest of us, she has a very hard time resisting the urge, the need, to recreate her trauma.  

What trauma? Maybe the trauma of an attempted home invasion, or the trauma of terroristic threats against her husband.  Maybe the trauma that comes from watching your husband try to hand over your daughters to be raped and, most likely, killed.  Maybe she looked back out of compulsion, maybe she was just trying to see where it all went so wrong.  She looks back in trauma and mourning, and Yahweh kills her. What a guy.

Back to the text. 

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave.”

31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

People have always cringed at this passage because of the incest, and there are, of course, plenty of people who feel that’s mitigated a little by the fact that lot seemed to have no idea of what was going on.  As for this business of saving the family line and so on, yes, that was of incredible cultural, social, and economic importance in the Ancient Near East.  Yes, it was a matter of survival.  Yes, we are likely seeing an allusion to Levirate marriage (more on that in a future episode) being read back into the text.  But here’s the important thing. If it’s true that Lot’s daughters got him drunk, if it’s true that Lot had no idea what he was doing, what we’re seeing here is rape. 

So, what really happened?  Well, we have no way of knowing.  We have know way of knowing if there really was a Lot.  We have no way of knowing if some redacting took an earlier tradition of Lot abusing his daughters and thought, well, I should probably tone this down a bit and make the patriarch look better.  Or, perhaps, the story always went this way.  What we know is what we have, a story in which two daughters who had been offered by their father to an angry mob to be raped have now raped that father.  They have kept the score. 

Perhaps the repetition of narrative motifs in scripture and in other texts is not simply a matter of reinterpreting existing traditions.  Perhaps these writers were more sophisticated than we give them credit for.  In any case, it’s clear that these families are not so different from our own, repeating their own traumas and perpetuating cycles of abuse.

Thank you for joining us today. Please consider subscribing via your platform of choice.  A few house-keeping items:  this podcast now has a facebook page, facebook.com/worstchurchever.  If you use that platform, please give us a follow or a like over there, and please consider supporting the podcast through anchor.fm/worstchurchever.  Worst Church Ever is available on Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, Radio Public, Pocket Casts, Breaker and more.  Yesterday, we became available on Stitcher, though a few episodes seem to be missing there.  We’re also in many podcast directories, including PodChaser.  If you like what we’re doing, please consider leaving a review.  

Thanks again for listening.  We’ll talk again very soon! Bye for now.